That’s really how it strikes me. If you win, you get the land. If you treat the defeated with some civility, then no one bothers with you. If you treat the defeated well, then you get international support, too.

On the other hand, the US treats the Natives with some civility – maybe even well. So there’s not a lot of support for a Native uprising. But if they did and won, I can’t imagine too many people not saying, “Good for them.”

We know the atrocities that have been done against the Native American peoples here in the last few hundred years. What actions would be justified for these people to take back what was once theirs?

http://socialistworker.org/2009/01/06/making-of-israeli-apartheid

What if you framed it: If only Israel would cease the occupation, Palestine would stop the terrorist activity.

Because there doesn’t seem to be any reason to trust Hamas (for many, many reasons)?

I’m not saying this is one sided. I said that I read Palestine refuses to deconstruct their terrorist devices until Israel leaves. Israel refuses to leave until Palestine deconstructs their terrorist devices. Neither side is willing to blink. :\

And I’m not saying embargoes and occupations are good. I think the US embargo of Cuba is awful and needed to be stopped years ago (especially since Cuba isn’t firing rockets into the US). And, as you said, the Israeli embargo/occupation is more brutal. Much more brutal. Inhumane and so on.

What I am saying is that it makes sense to me that Israel would refuse to end the occupation without a show of good faith. Hamas/3-of-the-big-5 Arab countries want Israel gone completely. And despite Israel’s willingness to compromise, at least a little (offering a return of land, offering reparations, offering an end to the occupation), what has Palestine done?

More rockets. More attacks on border crossings. Exclusive targeting of civilians.

How do you compromise on that? What would Canada do if the US refused to moderate the behavior of militant groups firing rockets across the border?

What if you framed it: If only Israel would cease the occupation, Palestine would stop the terrorist activity.

Do some research into what it’s like to live under that occupation and tell me if the answer doesn’t become obvious.

4 Israeli citizens killed. 1 soldier. 500+ Palestinian deaths and still counting. This is bloodthirsty murder. And it gets better:

‘The Israeli President Shimon Peres says Israel does not intend to occupy the Gaza Strip. The ground offensive is just meant “to teach Hamas a lesson”.’

500+ dead already. Lesson learned yet? Are you fucking kidding me? Why in the world is this so acceptable to the West? Where is our morality now?

Canada wouldn’t do this.

That’s how the occupation is described, and that’s what it looks like. Think of the people who are born there and live there. The *vast* *vast* *vast* majority of ordinary people that are confused and angry that they ahve t

Maybe it’s media bias, but everything I hear is, like I said before, that Israel has offered a minimum of 90% of the land back – if only Palestine would cease the terrorist activity. It sounds pretty straight-forward. But I’ve also read that Israel has refused similar demands.

But it makes me think that it doesn’t matter. Neither side is willing to do what is required to end this. Not without ownership of Jerusalem or the total removal of Israel. It’s like saying that the “best” solution is to declare Jerusalem neutral ground, but that cannot happen. :\

As far as adults go, is Egypt the only candidate since they seem to have lost interest in the eradication of Israel?

The Palestinians live under brutal oppression. When you pressure people like that, they rebel. Groups like Hamas get popular support as an expression of rebellion. End the occupation, end Hamas. The only morality involved in this situation should be one of practical recognition of the human right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The Palestinians are not offered that due to the occupation. The Israelis are denied it for the same reason.

I don’t support either side. Hamas doesn’t want peace. Kill Hamas by killing their source of support. Look at the lessons of Iraq (and every other dumb war we get into).

I was listening to a talk show today on the radio (a liberal CBC one) and the host was talking a Palestinian supporter somewhere who was apologising for Hamas and explaining how they get their weapons and how easy it was to smuggle them in. The host asked: “So if it’s so easy for Hamas to smuggle weapons, then why don’t they smuggle in aid?” The guy on the other end had no answer.

Israel dug themselves into a hole, dug into maybe by the Arabs attacking Israel, maybe dug by the UN forming Israel, maybe by the Germans killing Jews, maybe blah blah blah. Israel is not acting like the adult here. The adult here sees the best answer for all parties, which is peace and prosperity, and ends the occupation.

I find it so frustrating to hear people get into this like its morally ambiguous; it’s not. It’s a practical problem and people live in miserable fucking conditions today while we argue legitimacy. It’s criminal.

Israel and Palestine both did a lot of awful stuff to drag this out, because of an obsession over the designated “holy land,” (amongst other things) but… Israel has recently been saying, “Hey. We’ll give you a ton of land back and stop this forever if you’ll just stop the terrorist stuff and be civil.” Hamas (elected (and supported?) by Palestine) says “no, we’re here to wipe you off the planet.” :\ They hide their milita amidst civilians, and Israel, with little choice, hits back at militia and civilians alike.

I read a comment that said the US would never stand for something like this on their own territory. Russia showed as much with Georgia. And it’s obvious China would act similarly. So everyone should just back off from Israel and let them handle their business. (Of course, there is no resolution. Well, some people have suggested if they just bombed the hell out of the surrounding region like the US did Japan, it might accomplish something.)

I did read one bit of black humor which basically said Palestine needs to accept their role as casino caretakers. Eep! I don’t think that’s happening.

Yeah. But why? :\

I don’t know and I don’t think it really matters anymore. It just echoes in my head that if the Palestinians unilaterally declared peace, and actually halted the ass-backward violence, then their problems would vanish. So, in a very real sense, the Palestinians have the power and the whole thing is ultimately self-inflicted by them.

Sure, Israel is the adult in the situation and Palestine is the three year old… but the adult is essentially powerless to stop a conflict that a three year old insists on pursuing… and yet we universally declare the adult as being responsible, even when powerless in a given situation.