Israel
(today’s post: 415 words)
I do follow international news, a little, but I’ve never followed anything related to Israel. In fact, in my President Bob platform, you won’t find a single reference to Israel.
I’ve never once had a gut feeling that the Israeli’s were right or wrong (or that supporting them was right or wrong). And whenever anyone brings it up my eyes glaze over. Recently, thanks to Israel being more news-worthy (because of the war), my eyes are all sorts of glazed.
Coincidentally, a site I frequent posted a link to a Rachel Maddow piece on Israel – suggesting it as perfect starter material for [ignorant] people like me. So I gave it a watch and felt like I learned a little – though my eyes did glaze a little.
Then I read some comments on the post and spotted one that really simplified it. Whew!
The person, if effect, said that it would be as if:
a) persecuted peoples from the Middle East decided to form their own country; b) they invaded a chunk of the US and declared the land theirs; c) they were resisted by the US but held tight thanks to military and financial support from Russia and China; d) they slowly (but widely) grew out their territory to create buffer; e) all of which leads to the US hating Russia, China, and these new conquerors. f) Throughout this process, the conquerors have booted out the previous American residents, taken their homes, and occasionally squelched small bands of ill-equipped-but-occasionally-radical American patriots.
(Why can’t everyone talk like this?)
From what little I’ve read the only issue remaining, in this simplification, is the justification of whether the Middle East invaders have any claim to that chunk of invaded US territory.
And to that I ask if it really matters.
Isn’t conquest a real part of our world? We Americans have no “claim” to our territory other than that we took it. The entire world has been colonized and re-colonized. Maybe God wanted the Israeli’s to have that land. Maybe God wanted anyone but them to have that land. And maybe there’s no such thing as God at all. But Israel took that land and made it their own – and it strikes me as hypocritical for any other conquering nation to criticize them.
Now tell me how foolishly naive and simplistic this post is. But use small words and speak slowly and, if my eyes lose focus, throw in some fun examples to spice up your point. Thanks!
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I saw a movie at the Metro about this. It was about the biased media that North Americans get regarding the conflict in the Middle East. After the movie, the theater was open to discussion, and most of the people there were immigrants (either first or second gen) from the region and had quite passionate views on it. I can tell you that it’s more complicated than what you posted, just from listening to these people.
1Hanan Ashrawi was complaining this week that the war wasn’t fair, since militarily there wasn’t a level playing field. If the Palestinians want a “fair” war and not peace, and thereby justify Hamas rocket attacks as inconsequential because Israel is stronger, then Israel can only achieve peace by “unfair” means.
To ignore this unspoken “we want a war we can win” premise, and then re-justify the Hamas attacks on Israel because of a humanitarian crisis, that is brought on by the stockpiling of weapons whenever the borders are open and the funneling of resources towards war instead of infrastructure… is incongruent. It is a tragedy, but we can’t hold Israel up to a higher standard than the Palestinians… except, we already are consistently holding Israel up to a higher standard.
As for who has the right to any land… no land on the planet has not been wrested from another through conquest. To point to a single proper inheritor for a land is madness… The Hebrew were there before the Palestinians, and there were peoples there before both of them. Pointing to a spot in history and saying “that’s the point when possession matters” is nuts.
2*glaze*
3Elaborate!
But don’t necessarily complicate it if you don’t have to. :p
All I have heard is that there’s a big fear of being called anti-Semitic by not supporting Israel, so the media (conservatives would clarify the *liberal* media) goes out of their way to praise Israel and criticize Hamas as terrorists. (Does that mean conservative media does not support Israel?)
But I’m not sure why the US supports Israel so greatly. Is it because we’re fellow conquerors? Is it because of Jewish voters writing their Congressmen? And is that why so many people wanted to know, during the US election, who supported Israel more, Obama or McCain?
All in all, as someone from another country, I see no reason to support either side in this conflict. It’s their war and doesn’t seem to have any impact or potential for impact on us. But I guess isolationism is not the US way.
4Yeah. But why? :\
Yeah. Agreed. That’s what I meant when I wrote that “The entire world has been colonized and re-colonized.” I don’t get it. It makes me think countries are saying, “No. It’s OK. We’ve conquered everyone we want to. We’ve got all the land we want. So now everyone else has to stop, too.” I guess that’s why everyone got so mad about Russia/Georgia.
5Haha. Yeah. I have to keep simplifying it in my head to keep it making sense. :p
6I don’t care enough to bother. :/
7I don’t know and I don’t think it really matters anymore. It just echoes in my head that if the Palestinians unilaterally declared peace, and actually halted the ass-backward violence, then their problems would vanish. So, in a very real sense, the Palestinians have the power and the whole thing is ultimately self-inflicted by them.
Sure, Israel is the adult in the situation and Palestine is the three year old… but the adult is essentially powerless to stop a conflict that a three year old insists on pursuing… and yet we universally declare the adult as being responsible, even when powerless in a given situation.
8Reading more, that’s the feeling I’m getting.
Israel and Palestine both did a lot of awful stuff to drag this out, because of an obsession over the designated “holy land,” (amongst other things) but… Israel has recently been saying, “Hey. We’ll give you a ton of land back and stop this forever if you’ll just stop the terrorist stuff and be civil.” Hamas (elected (and supported?) by Palestine) says “no, we’re here to wipe you off the planet.” :\ They hide their milita amidst civilians, and Israel, with little choice, hits back at militia and civilians alike.
I read a comment that said the US would never stand for something like this on their own territory. Russia showed as much with Georgia. And it’s obvious China would act similarly. So everyone should just back off from Israel and let them handle their business. (Of course, there is no resolution. Well, some people have suggested if they just bombed the hell out of the surrounding region like the US did Japan, it might accomplish something.)
I did read one bit of black humor which basically said Palestine needs to accept their role as casino caretakers. Eep! I don’t think that’s happening.
9Documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCL6WdnuNp4
The Palestinians live under brutal oppression. When you pressure people like that, they rebel. Groups like Hamas get popular support as an expression of rebellion. End the occupation, end Hamas. The only morality involved in this situation should be one of practical recognition of the human right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The Palestinians are not offered that due to the occupation. The Israelis are denied it for the same reason.
I don’t support either side. Hamas doesn’t want peace. Kill Hamas by killing their source of support. Look at the lessons of Iraq (and every other dumb war we get into).
I was listening to a talk show today on the radio (a liberal CBC one) and the host was talking a Palestinian supporter somewhere who was apologising for Hamas and explaining how they get their weapons and how easy it was to smuggle them in. The host asked: “So if it’s so easy for Hamas to smuggle weapons, then why don’t they smuggle in aid?” The guy on the other end had no answer.
Israel dug themselves into a hole, dug into maybe by the Arabs attacking Israel, maybe dug by the UN forming Israel, maybe by the Germans killing Jews, maybe blah blah blah. Israel is not acting like the adult here. The adult here sees the best answer for all parties, which is peace and prosperity, and ends the occupation.
I find it so frustrating to hear people get into this like its morally ambiguous; it’s not. It’s a practical problem and people live in miserable fucking conditions today while we argue legitimacy. It’s criminal.
10Hm! Good response. Again, I can’t argue this topic. I’m still figuring out the basics. But I do have a comment:
Maybe it’s media bias, but everything I hear is, like I said before, that Israel has offered a minimum of 90% of the land back – if only Palestine would cease the terrorist activity. It sounds pretty straight-forward. But I’ve also read that Israel has refused similar demands.
But it makes me think that it doesn’t matter. Neither side is willing to do what is required to end this. Not without ownership of Jerusalem or the total removal of Israel. It’s like saying that the “best” solution is to declare Jerusalem neutral ground, but that cannot happen. :\
As far as adults go, is Egypt the only candidate since they seem to have lost interest in the eradication of Israel?
11Why do you continue to think like that?
What if you framed it: If only Israel would cease the occupation, Palestine would stop the terrorist activity.
Do some research into what it’s like to live under that occupation and tell me if the answer doesn’t become obvious.
4 Israeli citizens killed. 1 soldier. 500+ Palestinian deaths and still counting. This is bloodthirsty murder. And it gets better:
‘The Israeli President Shimon Peres says Israel does not intend to occupy the Gaza Strip. The ground offensive is just meant “to teach Hamas a lesson”.’
500+ dead already. Lesson learned yet? Are you fucking kidding me? Why in the world is this so acceptable to the West? Where is our morality now?
Canada wouldn’t do this.
That’s how the occupation is described, and that’s what it looks like. Think of the people who are born there and live there. The *vast* *vast* *vast* majority of ordinary people that are confused and angry that they ahve t
12Because there doesn’t seem to be any reason to trust Hamas (for many, many reasons)?
I’m not saying this is one sided. I said that I read Palestine refuses to deconstruct their terrorist devices until Israel leaves. Israel refuses to leave until Palestine deconstructs their terrorist devices. Neither side is willing to blink. :\
And I’m not saying embargoes and occupations are good. I think the US embargo of Cuba is awful and needed to be stopped years ago (especially since Cuba isn’t firing rockets into the US). And, as you said, the Israeli embargo/occupation is more brutal. Much more brutal. Inhumane and so on.
What I am saying is that it makes sense to me that Israel would refuse to end the occupation without a show of good faith. Hamas/3-of-the-big-5 Arab countries want Israel gone completely. And despite Israel’s willingness to compromise, at least a little (offering a return of land, offering reparations, offering an end to the occupation), what has Palestine done?
More rockets. More attacks on border crossings. Exclusive targeting of civilians.
How do you compromise on that? What would Canada do if the US refused to moderate the behavior of militant groups firing rockets across the border?
13Good article (for me) summing up all the wrong-doings of Israel over the decades:
http://socialistworker.org/2009/01/06/making-of-israeli-apartheid
14To make your simplified example a little more true to life, let’s say that the small group of invaders in question are Anasazi descendants that take over the four corners area. They claim (with as much credibility as any other group that has lived there) that the Navajo, Spanish, and European peoples have cheated them of their historic homeland. Their gods live in those hills so they can only be complete if they reside there.
We know the atrocities that have been done against the Native American peoples here in the last few hundred years. What actions would be justified for these people to take back what was once theirs?
15What actions would be justified? I imagine if the Natives showed up with better weapons than the US defenders and won the fight, that might be enough?
That’s really how it strikes me. If you win, you get the land. If you treat the defeated with some civility, then no one bothers with you. If you treat the defeated well, then you get international support, too.
On the other hand, the US treats the Natives with some civility – maybe even well. So there’s not a lot of support for a Native uprising. But if they did and won, I can’t imagine too many people not saying, “Good for them.”
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