Good is the new bad
I’ve noticed that people often use the term “socialist” in a derogatory manner, generally coming when someone else is arguing in favor of “the people”. You always see this on the news. Someone says that they believe that people deserve quality, affordable health care or believe that it’s in the country’s best interest to have educated citizens. And then someone else calls them a socialist. It’s never “Oh, you’re just an idealist. Of course we’d love to get health care for everyone, but that’s so expensive and let’s be realistic. We’re in a recession.” No, it’s “socialist” said in a way that sounds like “Nazi”. Or “Atheist”. Or “Child molester”. OK, maybe not “Child molester” bad, but I think “Nazi” and “Atheist” bad is accurate. But anyway, when did being a pie-in-the-sky idealist become such a bad thing? I’ll never get it.
Anyway, I wrote up a new article for the BeauKnows site. I’ll edit this post with the details when it’s live.
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Maybe I am reading that wrong, but what is bad about being an Atheist? Regardless of what they profess to believe/not believe, one human seems as hypocritical as the next.
By the uneducated and malignant, the word Socialist is incorrectly used interchangeably with Communist, which in turn is incorrectly used interchangeably with Fascist.
1When did Atheist become bad?
The difficulty with socialism is that it’s an ideology, not a practical implementation. Talk to me about what you plan do DO. Ideological terms are just a distraction from the nuts and bolts of real government.
2I’m a pragmatic idealist. There isn’t anything wrong with being a pie-in-the-sky idealist. At some point a person should step back and really look at and understand their version of the “ideal”. It can lead to growth. Socialism isn’t the “ideal” for many. Seriously – I don’t want government owned industry, no personal property and everything else that goes with socialism. But I am in favor of national health care (if done right). Being “for the people” doesn’t mean socialism. The other week during the 1-Percenters comments, you didn’t describe yourself as an idealist. You called yourself as a socialist. So – what are you… Socialist or Idealist?
3How is Atheism bad? Have you *been* to the US? I thought you lived here, Tsul.
Bob wasn’t saying it actually *is* bad, he was saying that it’s considered bad by a lot of people.
4Using atheist as a pejorative was my attempt to be funny while simultaneously being honest, too. No, there’s nothing wrong with being an Atheist, but the closer you get to the Bible Belt and/or the mid-West, the more likely you are to find many people who vehemently disagree.
You’re right about the uneducated, for sure. They do believe Socialist == Communist == Fascist == Nazi == Evil.
But my point was more to ask when it became a bad thing to do good things. If I petition for health care for all, I’ve become a bad person. You couldn’t call me a bad person for wanting benefits for people, but you can easily call me a *with a sneer and a spit* “socialist” to utterly dismiss my comment.
5Socialists plan to do a lot of things. And other groups plan to do a lot of things which are socialist in nature. Iain, you’re saying socialism is an ideology and ideologies are distractions from real government. Right? Check out the platforms of various socialist politicians and you’ll see they’re very much entrenched in the nuts and bolts.
6That’s the kind of response I like. Maybe I misread Iain’s prior comment and this is more what he meant, too. Not sure.
But anyway, I like your response because you say you don’t like socialism because it’s not your ideal, and then you explain why. If more people responded like that, I think we’d be living in a different world. A better world. But as it is, it seems like far too many people dismiss thought with a wave of their hand and the recitation of a spoon-fed sound bite or two.
Side note, but socialism has no problems with you owning property. Socialism has no problems with you owning more property than me. Socialism is about ensuring that I have *some* property and capping how much you have. A common socialist viewpoint on income, for example, is to say that salaries should be capped at 10x or 20x (or insert your favorite multiple) of the minimum living wage. Communism, on the other hand, ain’t so accommodating.
And I think we all know by now that I’d rather the gov’t disseminate my health care than a corporation focused on profit. So I won’t dredge that up again.
7I think socialism *is* being for the people. I don’t see how it isn’t. It’s focused on *social* reform. That is, making the world a better place for people. Let’s get rid of poverty. Let’s get rid of poor education. Let’s get rid of bad health. And what’s not idealist about these comments? The Republicans want to save money. The libertarians don’t want to get at all involved. Even the Democrats are more pragmatist.
Every time I publicly declare some socialist statement, people tell me my expectations are too unrealistic. I think that shows I’m not the only one who associates socialism with idealism.
8Yes. It’s sinful to think you can be good with God. But, for some reason, they don’t consider that it sounds weird to everyone else that they’re implying they’re *only* being good because of God. So… if God goes away, do Christians unleash their pent up desires? We don’t have that worry with Atheists because if there is a God and He went away, nothing changes.
9I live in California, which according the devout is not really part of the USA.
I am not an atheist or a theist… and from my experience everyone from the skeptic to the believer is so steeped in hypocrisy that whatever they profess to be is an insult to their God or lack thereof.
10The same would be true for “economic” beliefs, like socialism and capitalism… but a true pessimistic idealist like myself would tell you, “no matter how you base society on the back of economics, you are doomed to fail.” Civilization and Society need to be based on something better…
When is the last time you did something to make the world a better place? I don’t mean paper or plastic. I mean something that made a difference to a person or people outside your group. The selfless act for the betterment of mankind.
11How can you not be an atheist or a theist? I don’t think there’s anything else. It’d be like saying you’re neither alive nor dead. Wait a minute. Are you undead?!
As for the rest of your comment, I’ll agree with that. I like the idea that money messes things up and we need more noble causes to live for. I think that is quite the idealist statement.
12Your suggestion that I could do more is correct. I could do more. We could all do more. And we should all do more. And we should focus our government’s tax dollars on helping raise people up, too. If I’m taxed 25% of my income, I’d rather that money go to universal health care, living wages, housing — basic needs, as well as stuff like energy alternatives so we can provide a better future for people — and less toward wars, lobbyists, corporations, and other.
13Bobby – you didn’t answer the question. You did the socialist shuffle.
. Well…you passed the buck. Why should “we” take your positions and ideas seriously when you don’t believe enough in them to take actions. I’m not trying to be insulting…but it seems like you’re just another person bitching, moaning, telling other people what they should do and not doing anything to help. I have no respect for that.
14Atheists believe there is no god(s) and theists believe in god(s). That leaves anyone who doesn’t believe either way, or doesn’t choose to decide either way, or just doesn’t define god on a level that makes either belief possible. :pirate:
We are not our memories. We are not our beliefs. What we are cannot be put in a box, like those of any “-ist” or “-ian” or any other suffix or adjective. I don’t know what I am, so how can I choose to delude myself with psychological identifications with groups or definitions?
15“I’m not trying to be insulting….but you’re a hypocrite and I have no respect for that”
And stop fucking calling him Bobby. Seriously.
16Not quite… at least, from what I understand… atheist is without god and theist is with god. People think those terms are too all or nothing so they come up with new terms like agnostic which are slightly more friendly. But if you’re not certain whether god exists, then you’re an atheist. If you think there is a god but don’t make god a part of your life, that’s atheist, too. if you’re a hindu and your friends are christian, you might even call them atheists, too, haha. :p
But anyway, I’m trying to share my understanding of atheism because it seems to get a bad rap as this religion-like group of people violently rejecting the notion of belief in god and fighting with groups of people who believe in god. That’s not it.
But I won’t press because I like the idea of saying that we are not our beliefs. I mean, I disagree but who cares?
We throw a lot of labels around and use it to short-cut thought. 
17I ignored the question because it comes across as irrelevant and a quick way to dismiss my thoughts and beliefs. I also ignored the question because you’re trying to turn a large issue into a personal one.
I believe people should have health care. And I believe the health care should be high quality and “free” (covered by tax). Do I need to volunteer in an emergency room to have those beliefs? I believe everyone deserves to have food and water. Do I need to work in a soup kitchen to have those beliefs? I believe people deserve warm, clean clothes. Do I need to work at a Salvation Army to think that way?
I believe a wide array of things, and I also believe the best way to tackle these huge tasks is to not try to carry the entire load ourselves but work with the government (we the people) to create a structure where we can all chip in with what we can and help everyone.
But nice job on ridiculing the concept. The Socialist Shuffle? You have no respect for me because I’m just bitching that wealthy groups are blocking/striving to block health care reform? Wow.
18An atheist is “a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.” A theist is “a person who believes in the existence of a god or gods.” I neither believe or disbelieve… I have no issue with the existence or nonexistence of a god or gods.
If you want to etymological argument then I contend that most religious people are atheist, because by their very actions they are clearly “without god”.
With that reasoning, I will wait for a god or gods to tell me if I am with them.
19Reign – What the fuck have YOU done lately for the betterment of mankind?
20“The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply “not believing in any gods.” No claims or denials are made — an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist.” And a theist is someone who believes.
“No claims or denials are made.” That’s the key part, for me. I will never say there is no such thing as god(s). I will never tell someone that they are wrong for believing and having faith. I can’t know that. I can only know my reaction to various arguments and presentations.
Hopefully I will learn it and all the other secrets of the universe, but for now all I can say is that I don’t actively believe in any god or gods so I’m an atheist. Or, to repeat, you can either be alive or dead. You can say these labels are irrelevant to you and so forth, and that’s fine, you don’t need to include them in your life, you don’t need to acknowledge them, but I don’t see room for other possibilities. Unless you’re a vampire. Are you a vampire? *raises eye brow* If you are, I wanna know!!!
And no, I don’t play to turn you in to the Fellowship of the Sun.
21Personally, I don’t really care if Reign has or has not helped the world — in regard to this conversation. It’s not relevant, which was why I originally ignored it.
My assertion isn’t that everyone needs to spend their lives helping others. I’ve never said that. And I don’t believe that’s the socialist platform, either. That is true idealism, though. That would be an even better world than the one I envision. I could get behind that. But maybe I’m being the pragmatist by arguing for small, meaningful steps.
Socialism is a system that advocates for a more egalitarian distribution of resources. That’s pretty much it. Not even egalitarian. Just “more” egalitarian. Let’s help raise up the fallen. And let’s combine our resources so that the job is easier. A little effort from all instead of a lot of effort from a few.
22Yeah, except there are plenty of denials if you actually listen to more common self proclaimed atheist. The statement “There is no god” is common, and the statement “I don’t know if there is a god is far less common.” And again, referencing my earlier reply, “if you don’t presume to define god, then you can’t be with or without god.”
God is love, makes me a die hard theist. God is chocolate, makes me an occasional theist. God is exactly what Rush Limbaugh claims, makes me an atheist.
Atheists as a group, Theists as a group, skeptics as a group, believers as a group, Socialists as a group, Capitalists as a group, whatever… I want none of it.
23I asked the question because it is a fair point to make. You want the world to be a better place yet you don’t do anything towards that end. In MY ideal we all take action. Not on everything we believe in…who has that sort of time. But action. Social reform starts with us. Not the government. Not nanny laws. Aren’t you accusing the wealthy of not wanting to help? You have no problem insulting me and people in my tax bracket. But when it is time to look inward…
I’ve been calling you Bobby (or B4) for years. When did it become so insulting?
24You know what, most of the time I want none of it, too. When, as an example, I first started reading up on socialism, I was more interested in the label as a reference point from which to grow. It becomes less useful the more you grow because you can define yourself more specifically instead of with giant, bucket labels. But it remains an easy way to share that part of yourself with others more quickly, if you want them to be able to understand you with short-cuts. Words can be tarnished by people’s behaviors and actions, but I’d rather ignore those actions and behaviors and focus in on the words without judgments, if possible.
Again, I guess I just take it more simply. If I lead a life without god but don’t deny god exists, if I hate god and actively deny him, if I don’t know what god is and never heard the term god before and it has nothing to do with my life, then it’s all the same when we’re looking at simple short-cuts: atheist.
But tools are just that. If they don’t help you, forget about them!
But I still think you’re a vampire now. 
25@ Agent of Chaos – a lot. I don’t just write big checks and smile. I do the dirty work too.
26I never accused the wealthy of not wanting to help! I said that if the wealthy don’t want to give their extra cash to ensure that everyone can have health care, then that makes them look like selfish people. And I further said that if I was wealthy I would have no problem giving up a majority of my income to create a system where people can be more equal. I dislike a system where there are limited resources and some are able to take larger portions of the share for their own benefit.
But regardless, no one is asking the wealthy to give up all their money. Or most of their money. The government is only asking the wealthy to give up some of their recent tax breaks to help the poor. They’ll still be able to make tons of cash. They can still enjoy a wealthy lifestyle. I don’t have a problem with that. A lot of people do.
I agree with you that social reform should start within, but let’s face it. It’s a big, big world. It’s more efficient for us all to donate a little money so that everyone can be better off for it. And it’s also more efficient for us to vote to create a government structure that can help us strategize and prioritize what those needs are.
If a hurricane hits Louisiana and it gets a lot of publicity, many people will be motivated toward donating time and/or money to help the cause. But what causes are they neglecting while helping that cause? Doesn’t it make more sense to create an establishment that can handle all causes? And doesn’t it make more sense to dedicate our time and/or money to funding that establishment? Wouldn’t it be great if you could go out and make a butt-load of cash, pay a little extra tax, and know that there was a structure in place to make sure no one was starving or homeless or suffering with cancer and unable to receive medical attention?
That’s my only assertion.
27Now I’m laughing because I wrote “that’s my only assertion” but… the entirety of my post was to wonder why people find socialism to be negative or evil — and the responses to that have gone far in wildly divergent directions. Ah, communication. It is anything but boring.
28The conversations taking place here are becoming more and more pointless. It’s disappointing.
29I think I’d agree. If you look at it, it looks like Reign and I are arguing. In reality, we’re both saying it’d be a better world if — and we’re both right. It would be a better world if more people did more. It would be a better world if everyone had the basics. Those aren’t mutually exclusive. But I don’t understand the socialist shuffle or lack of respect comments. That’s where it all becomes pointless and tired. One other thing, a smoker can tell people they shouldn’t smoke and educate others with the reasons. The advice is still sound and good.
30Bob, it’s hard to have a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed.
31“But I don’t understand the socialist shuffle”
Was a joke. Did you not see the emote? Shuffle as in dance.
32He knew what you meant. He didn’t understand the purpose of the comment.
33Oh, and as for the Bobby comment…
People who call Bob “Bobby”:
- His family
- Close friends of 15+ years
- Ex-girlfriends
- YOU
Which of these doesn’t belong?
34I am something more like a Vorlon… or a Shadow.
I wouldn’t really know but my guess would be your repeated attempts to make certain commenters feel unwelcome…
I recall Reign calling him Bobby since before the original NWN came out… which gotta be 8-10 years. It has never been an issue, until you decided to go all Jerry Springer on her.
35I don’t remember any tension until Reign made a few comments that were hard to take “the right way” (assuming) in the thread where I posted a story. Reign said I sounded naive and self-important, amongst other things, and that’s the first time Candice said anything “unwelcoming” toward her.
Now, I tend to brush off non-constructive or rude comments and focus on the heart of the comment (or, I try), and I have chatted with Reign off-and-on for years so I’m more adjusted to her “style”, but Candice isn’t one to take such comments with a fake smile and a shrug. I’m not saying pointing out someone else’s comments makes a situation better, but I am saying there’s an obvious reason for the situation that didn’t start with Candice. :\
Anyway, I’m not trying to escalate or start a war, I just think it’s unfair to say that Candice has been making repeated attempts to make her feel unwelcome.
36Sorry, but 98% of Reign’s posts are worded in a condescending manner.
I don’t like that, and I’m not afraid to call people out on their bullshit. Bob, on the other hand, tends to be more polite about things, even if, in reality, he’s thinking the exact same thing as me.
It’s rare that her comments add anything to the conversation other than questioning Bob’s beliefs/morals/values/thoughts/actions. She rarely responds or adds anything to the actual conversation at hand. It always ends up being directed at Bob somehow and questioning him about some shit that really has nothing to do with the discussion. Or ridiculing him for posting his writing online, calling him naive and self important, the list goes on. Sorry, but conversing with someone sporadically on a message board over the course of a few years doesn’t qualify you to fucking psychoanalyze someone. And now she says she doesn’t respect him because he’s a hypocrite. Well why the hell do you even keep coming to his site then???
And the only reason I’ve taken issue w/ YOU lately is because you’ve been adding to the arguments for nothing other than the sake of defending her, even when she has absolutely no point. I never had any problems with you until recently. I really don’t have a problem with you now, to be honest. You’re usually pretty polite, and are capable of having a discussion without turning shit around on everyone else and coming off like a condescending bitch.
So anyway, why is it okay for her to talk to Bob the way she does, but I say what’s on my mind, and I’m “going out of my way to make people feel uncomfortable?” Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason I respond the way I do is because other people’s comments make ME uncomfortable?
37But I suppose that’s okay since you guys have been posting here since the original NWN came out. I’m just a stupid n00b. WTF ever.
And really, nevermind ME being uncomfortable, how about the fact that she’s pretty much going out of her way to make BOB feel uncomfortable on HIS OWN SITE? We’ve already covered the fact that she’s insulted him on numerous occasions, but there are also the times where he chooses not answer a question/ignore a comment because he doesn’t see how it’s relevant to the discussion (and even SAYS that), and she still refuses to drop it. He shouldn’t have to ignore a shitty comment, then EXPLAIN why he ignored the shitty comment (ever so politely), try to get the conversation back on track, and then have all that completely ignored and instead receive another shitty comment in response. Isn’t that basically trolling?
38unwelcome, uncomfortable, same thing.
39All my posts are actually on topic and related to the discussion. You can’t try to make a point or give a person another position to consider without moving off a bit or asking questions…as long as it comes back on point. Challenging a person’s beliefs isn’t wrong. Asking a person to consider another view isn’t wrong. However, I had no idea that Bobby felt uncomfortable on his own blog because of me. For THAT I am sorry. I will stop reading this blog. This will be the last message I respond to.
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41I guess you won’t see this response since you’ve left, but I’ll respond just the same.
Don’t worry about offending me or making me uncomfortable. You didn’t. You have to be pretty close to me to be capable of offending me or making me uncomfortable. And besides that, I’m not offended easily. I’m not saying you weren’t offensive, I’m saying I’m not upset.
But the point remains that if the people of our little community (me, you, Tsul, Candice, Agent of Chaos, the good Dr. Stupid, Kam, Lisa, etc.) want this to be a place where we can speak freely and keep it casual, then people need to stop taking shots at one another. If that’s not important, then so be it. I’m not about the moderation. I’m about taking textual snap shots and keeping the discussion lines open along the way. Everyone is free to do as they will.
Hey, I’m always up for a good debate and I appreciate it when people comment, regardless.
You may feel this message about hostility doesn’t apply to you but it does: making derogatory (and inaccurate) generalizations about socialism or hinting that I’m a hypocrite aren’t challenging a person’s beliefs or trying to show another side for me to consider. That’s insulting me and fueling the atmosphere that makes people feel uncomfortable.
I can’t remember ever saying anything directly at you or any group that was offensive. Probably the closest I came to that was when I said that rich groups who refuse to help others and find ways to exploit the system so that they don’t have to help the starving, the sick, and so forth, are one of the problems that we as a society have to deal with. And I stand by that comment because those people *are* offensive.
So yes, it does make me wonder why you say things the way you do toward me. Or, as Candice put it, what’s your goal from reading my journal?
As I’ve said before, I have to dig through your words and ignore the way it reads to try to get at the core message (like when you talked about my “public masturbation” after “mouthing off” to lead up to it — that was actually a good point even though I had to think about it). And even then, sometimes it’s still difficult. Sometimes it seems like there is no core message that belies the presentation. But even then I try to take what I can and keep it friendly.
As far as challenging my beliefs, here’s an example of how you do that:
“I understand that your point is that we should share the cost of social reform, and that’s something to debate because I don’t agree with the nuts-and-bolts of your comments (and I’ll tell you all of the reasons why in a minute) — but, personally, I also think we should share the labor. Are you willing to share the labor? Here’s a site I found which organizes volunteer efforts. Here’s a link to my account on that site so you can see exactly what I’m doing. I wonder if you’ll put your mouth where your money is and sign up! Let’s see if you can out-volunteer me!”
See? No attacks or non-constructive criticisms. And I took your *core idea* pretty much as it was. Somehow, I think you feel this is what you’re doing. If it is, it’s not coming across how you think it is. If it came out this way, I guarantee Candice wouldn’t have felt defensive and protective of me.
Now I guess I’m trying to challenge your perceptions. Maybe it’s too late. Maybe I should have done this earlier. If you’ve left, you’ve left. But remember, that was your choice and it’s your life. Repercussions, and so on. Etc. etc. etc. Yadda. Amen. Hail science.
42:up: Bob
:up: Candice
43The fact that she felt the need to stick that one last “Bobby” in there is a fine display of her maturity and her ability to hold a productive conversation. And the fact that she can dish out all sorts of criticism but can’t take it herself. Oh darn.
44Aw, I get a thumbs up.
Anyway, if anyone agrees or disagrees with me, wants me to enact policies to moderate people or wants me to make sure nothing changes, feel free to let me know. I’m open to suggestions.
45Here is my contribution to the suggestion box:
Don’t be be so freakin’ nice when people are assholes to you.
Another option is to take my computer away, but I think that would cause more problems than it would solve.
46Yeah, don’t be so nice when people are assholes. Let some of Candice rub off on you
Mark wouldn’t have even *said* the word FUCK, let alone post in on a message board for all the churchy folks (and his super relig sis) to see a couple of years ago. Now, I think he quite enjoys it …
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